Pedro Martínez reverses the Curse

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DAVID GREENE, HOST: Have you ever lived through an experience that was so powerful just the memory of it takes you right back there? Like you’re re-experiencing the feeling in your body, even if it was years ago. Well, I can still feel the pain from October 14th, 1992. I was 16 years old.

My mom and I were in our house in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. We were getting ready to watch a baseball game. It was not just any baseball game. This was Game 7 of the National League Championship Series, and our Pittsburgh Pirates, we both love them so much, were playing, and if they won, if they beat the Atlanta Braves, they would be going to the World Series. I still remember the music that got the night started.

[MUSIC]

DG: I mean, CBS clearly thought we were going to win this game. They showed images of pirates, like fighting each other.

Announcer: Well, those persistent Pirates are a game away from their treasure: a trip to the World Series that will be all the more rewarding for the way they refuse to fold their main sails.

[CHEERING]

DG: The game got started. It was looking really good, and the Pirates, they were winning. They took the lead into the bottom of the ninth inning.

Announcer: Pittsburgh 2, Atlanta 1, with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th inning in Game 7 of the National League Championship Series

DG: I actually was getting so nervous that we’d somehow lose this that I told my mom I couldn’t watch with her anymore. I walked into my bedroom. I shut the door for the end.

Announcer: He hacked at the 2 oh and now the 2 1.

DG: And then it happened.

Announcer: Line drive and a base hit! Justice has scored the tying run, Bream to the plate, and he is safe! Safe at the plate! The Braves go to the World Series.

DG: Sid Bream, a former Pirate, slid into home plate, and Atlanta won 3 to 2.

It was devastating. I was on the floor of my bedroom, crying. That’s how much this meant to me.

Many years later, when I was hosting NPR’s Morning Edition, I got a chance to actually interview Sid Bream, the guy who ruined my childhood.

SID BREAM: I’ve certainly heard the comments from time to time, in regards to. “You really messed up my life when you slid home,” and “You messed up my honeymoon.” You know those types of comments. I’ve heard plenty of them. As I’ve told people, I’ve said, “If you’re still messed up from it, then I feel sorry for you, and you need to get a life.”

DG: (Laughter) Ok, I’ll take your advice. I bring up my childhood half-jokingly, but when people do approach you and tell you you’ve brought them so much sorrow, is there some sense of guilt, or what’s the emotion?

SB: I just tell people, you know, as far as that’s concerned, I mean if you were in the same position, you would have done the exact same thing that I did.

[THEME MUSIC]

DG: I want to do so much more of this, getting behind the big moments and understanding how athletes got there. That is what this show is gonna be all about.

Welcome to Sports in America from WHYY and PRX. I’m David Greene. You know – sports in this day and age, it’s one of the rare things that we still all show up for together. And I’m not just talking about baseball fans, football fans, NASCAR fans.

I’m talking about the parents who are schlepping their kids to soccer practice on weekends. Like we all have our own relationship with sports. They’re meaningful to us in some way, and there are so many great stories there. This show is going to find them.

Now I’m aware that I’m not the only baseball fan in the world who has suffered, especially this time of year. Maybe no baseball fan base in the country has gone through more heartbreak than Boston.

There was this thing called the Curse of the Bambino.

[MUSIC]

DG: It started in 1919, when Boston sold Babe Ruth to the New York Yankees, and everyone said they’re never going to win a World Series again. And they didn’t for a long time, despite, as many beat reporters would notice, some eerily close calls.

DG: It started in 1919, when Boston sold Babe Ruth to the New York Yankees, and everyone said they’re never going to win a World Series again. And they didn’t for a long time, despite, as many beat reporters would notice, some eerily close calls.

Archival: Behind the bat! It gets through Buckner, here comes Knight, and the Mets win it!

Dan Shaughnessy: Not only did they not win, they had these colossal screw up at the end where they come close, they take you to the edge, and then they blow it. These things just keep happening over and over.

That curse played a role in the most iconic rivalry in sports, the Red Sox and the Yankees, two of baseball’s oldest, most storied teams. They always seemed to play close games, but after the Babe went to New York, the Yankees won 26 World Series to the Red Sox zero.

Then, something happened in 1997 which gave the Boston Faithful a glimmer of hope.

Pedro Martínez: I don’t believe in damn curses, wake up the Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I’ll drill him in the {EXPLETIVE].

DG: That is Pedro Martínez, inarguably one of the best pitchers in baseball history.. We’ll talk to him today about his journey to baseball’s center stage and his role in finally ending the curse for Boston.

One thing’s for sure, the game’s never seen a more fierce competitor.

Pedro’s fiery nature was on display in 2003, in the American League championship series between – who else? The Yankees and Red Sox, when these generational tensions boiled over. Martínez was pitching to the Yankees, Karim Garcia

Announcers: And this is over the head of Karim Garcia and a foul ball. And Garcia immediately pops up and screams at Martínez.

DG: Pedro is on the mound, yelling towards the Yankees’ dugout.

[YELLING]

Announcers: Martínez now pointing; that’s the wrong thing to do. That’s inciting right there.

DG: In the next half inning, Yankees ace Roger Clemens retaliates by nearly hitting Red Sox star Manny Ramirez, and that sparks an all-out brawl, clearing both dugouts.

Announcers: Now, Ramirez, That ball’s not even close!

DG: And here it gets really unpleasant to watch. Pedro ends up taking down this old Yankees coach, Don Zimmer.

Announcers: Oh my goodness. Don Zimmer and Pedro Martínez. Oh, that’s awful. Don Zimmer, a 72-year-old man, went into Pedro Martínez’s face, and Pedro Martínez threw him down.

DG: Martínez was fined $50,000. Zimmer was hit with $5,000. That altercation was the biggest story in sports at the time, and so, as you can probably imagine, this left Pedro Martínez a little distracted going into the rest of that ‘03 series.

[MUSIC]

PEDRO MARTINEZ: The incident with Don Zimmer made it really difficult for me and really stressful to go out there. I was under death threats. I was under a lot of pressure from the New York fans. Mayor Bloomberg had said that if I was to step in New York, I was going to go to jail. My family was left back here in Boston, because of security reasons. So I had a lot on my mind before I took that game 7 in ‘03

DG: Do or die game 7. Red Sox in 2003 still trying to end the 80-year-old curse. They’re leading for most of the game, but then…

PM, In the seventh inning, going to the eighth, I started to struggle.

Announcer: As this ball is hit high and deep to right center, off the bat, Giambi and gone. It’s a three-run game. In the right center field, Damon back at the track at the wall, it is gone for another Giambi home run. It’s 4-2 of the Seventh.

PM: And it is the biggest heartbreaker I’ve ever had in my life. It was like, I can’t believe we were this close and having me on top of the bump and let it go. It is the only time I felt like really crying like a baby.

Archival: The Boston Red Sox and fans through New England. I’ll tell you they were five outs away in the eighth inning, leading by three as Boone hits it to deep left! That might send the Yankees to the World Series. Boone a hero in Game 7!

[CHEERING]

DG: With that infamous Aaron Boone homerun, the New Yankees would go on to win the game and advance to the ‘03 World Series. The Curse would hold for at least another year.

PM: You know, in Game 7 the next year, I was pretty positive that they were probably going to be the ones under pressure, like I was the previous year.

DG: Fast forward one year to 2004. Improbably, the Red Sox and Yankees were the last two teams standing in the American League for a second straight year. Pedro would have a shot at vindication. Eight decades of curse and failure. Pain from the year before. Pedro brushed all that off.

PM: The one thing I will suggest to every athlete out there, and I’m pretty sure Tom Brady, Michael Jordan, Mike Tyson, and everybody, is you cannot face the game afraid to fail. The worst thing that could happen is that you fail. Everything else, you have to look at it in a positive way. You have to think that you are going to succeed. If you go out there and you’re the first one fighting with yourself because you feel like you’re gonna fail, well, there’s no need for you to compete. You have to get rid of the fear of failure. And that’s one advice that I would give any athlete. Get rid of that fear of failure because all of us, the ones that are called successful, went to a stretch where we had to fail. And nobody can say I went through my career with only success. You are going to fail at a certain point. You just get rid of that. You just make sure that you don’t fail more than you succeed. But the failure is gonna go with your career, it’s gonna go with you, it’s going to follow you regardless of how special you are. It doesn’t matter if you’re Tom Brady or Michael Jordan or whoever you think you are; you are going to fail at one point. And I was never afraid to do that.
DG: You were never afraid to fail.
PM: No.
DG: It feels like that’s even more important. I mean, being a pitcher in critical moments, it feels like such a unique thing in sports. I mean, obviously, there’s a lot on the shoulders of a quarterback. There’s a lot of the shoulders of an NFL field goal kicker who has to go out and have one play, everything riding on his back. You are alone on the mound, on the bump as you say, with a whole team and a city and a franchise riding on the shoulders of you. Is it like anything else?
PM: It is very unique, but you are like that big stone surrounded by many more. And there are moments where you are pretty much in a personal way committed to the game. And it’s up to you. It’s not up to your teammates. It’s not up to your defense. It is the moment where you need a strikeout with the bases loaded and no space to run, no defense to cover you. Nothing else but a strikeout. That’s all you need. And that’s when you make it personal. Like in a bases-loaded situation, and you cannot afford to give up a ground ball. You cannot afford to give up a fly ball. You can literally say, if you don’t strike out this guy here, you don’t stand a chance. You make it personal. That’s a moment to make it personal. That’s when you really need to be that big stone that’s standing in the middle of all of the rest of the stones that are around you. There are moments where you rely on defense. You rely on your teammates to get it done. But there are moments where you have to make it personal. And bases loaded is one of those situations that doesn’t allow you to run away. The lead is one run. And you have really give yourself the opportunity to compete in a personal way with A Rod, with Sheffield, with Bernie Williams, those guys. And make it personal. How good are you, Bernie? I’m here to get you. And it’s between you and I, this challenge right here. Let’s see what you do. Because this is the best I have and I’m gonna give it to you.

DG: The best he had was some of the best ever. But you wouldn’t know it by looking at Pedro. At 5’11 he was tall but not too tall, and at 165 pounds you certainly wouldn’t call him physically imposing. So what made Pedro so hard to beat? That’s coming up next.

[MIDROLL]

DG: Welcome back to Sports in America. I’m David Greene. Pedro Martínez was this tiny assassin on the mound. Wiry, skinny, long, spindly fingers that could cast spells with a baseball. He also had an old-school gun-slinger swagger. He could make you fear him with high heat, and then have you swinging out of your cleats on the next pitch.

[MUSIC]

Announcers: Strike 3 called! He got him looking at a knee-high pitch over the outside corner.
What a nasty pitch that was. Wow.
Pedro usually throws what you least expect breaking ball strike 3.
A lot of the great pitchers have 2 great pitches, but Pedro gives you 3.
Swing and a miss, he just blew him away. That’s 17 for Pedro.
Stay tuned, Pedro doesn’t look like he’s losing anything. 4 in a row.
You talk about domination. He allowed only one base hit; from that point on, he got mad.
He departs after 9 innings to a standing ovation.

[CHEERING]
DG: Pedro, a lot of people look at your years from like 97 to 2003 as you being maybe better than any pitcher in the history of Major League Baseball.
PM: That’s a great compliment, you know.
DG Yeah, I mean, and I think it’s deserved. And I just think about you’re not, you’re relatively small compared to a lot of other historically amazing pitchers. You don’t have, like, a historic fastball. You seem to just have brought something that made you one of the best ever. Like what was it? And how much of it was mental? How much of was physical? What made you so good?
PM: It was a combination of all of it. All of the ones you just mentioned. But I think I had the determination to be as good as I could be. Believe me, the toughest challenge I had wasn’t in the big leagues. It was making it to the big league. Overcoming all the odds that were against me. Previous to being successful in the Big Leagues. Previous to being in the big Leagues, ever since I got to the big leagues, I’ve always been able to be above average.
DG: A lot more than above average, we should say, but yeah.
PM: Well, I’m being modest because I don’t really know the numbers. I don’t really look at numbers. Up to this day, I don’t know my entire numbers because I was just taking one game at a time and trying to prove to the world that I belong, that I wasn’t really all that small like they said. That I could pitch in the big Leagues, that I can compete, and that I could be special in the big leagues. That little chip on my shoulder to prove against the world, against all odds, against the hate in New York, against the hates around the league, or some players just hated me. Some players didn’t like me, some players didn’t want to see me.
DG: Why? Why do you think that was?
PM: I don’t know, you need to check up the numbers. But most of the guys that didn’t like me had little success. Against me.
DG: They just didn’t like that you beat them.
PM: Well, and some of them didn’t like that I would hit them. And I did hit some of them.
DG: Intentionally?
PM: Yeah, 98% of my hit by pitches were in retaliation or intentional. Why? Because the moment called for it. I wanted to let you know that you needed to respect what I did. I needed you to understand that if you hit one of mine, I was going to take one of yours. And I don’t regret anything. I remember being charged to the mound, got my butt kicked on the bottom of the pile. I don’t mind that, that’s part of the game. I didn’t mind anything that went on in baseball except the Zimmer incident. Because that one, I did not deserve.I don’t know if he deserved it or not. But I did not deserve to have that in my resume because there was no space for that one. But everything else, getting my butt kicked, hitting someone, and that someone dropping me on the floor, that was all fair game.
DG: Ok so it’s Game 7 of the 2004 ALCS, and it’s been an insane series so far just to quickly recap: The Red Sox were down three games to none and on the brink of elimination. But then in Game 4, a dramatic ninth-inning comeback and the Red Sox win in extras. They eventually tie the whole series and take it to game seven. In the 7th inning, the Red Sox lead 8-1. They’ve got this thing wrapped up; they could cruise to victory. Usually, this is when you’d use your bullpen, relief pitchers who are experts at protecting leads. You would never — say — bring in a star starting pitcher. I mean, save their energy for the World Series, right?

[MUSIC]

DG: So why did the Red Sox bring in Pedro?

PM: I had no business being in that game

Announcers: Pedro Martínez is on the mound, on short rest.

[CHEERING]

PM: Being the ace and being the leader of the pitching staff and the team. I felt like it was important that I showed up in the bullpen to let everybody know that if anything happens, if there is a situation or the situation calls for it, I would sacrifice my career. I would sacrifice my arm, I would sacrifice whatever I was feeling.

Announcers: Further on, this strange move, maybe Pedro asked to come in the game.

PM: Remember, all I had was a day rest. I had just pitched in Boston. I had a day’s rest.

[WHISTLING]

DG: Pedro Martínez never expected to play in this game. He almost had no time to warm up, and the Yankees jumped on him as soon as the inning started.

Announcers: Matsui rips it down into the corner.

PM: I was in trouble. I wasn’t feeling right.

Announcers: Williams hits it into right center field. Damon on the run this ball off the wall.
Back-to-back doubles. And the Yankees are alive here in the seventh. Now down by six.

PM: But it’s time to put it aside and risk it all and see what comes out of it.

Announcers: And this stadium has just come alive.

DG: Yankees fans, with the Don Zimmer incident still very fresh in their mind, were letting Pedro have it.

CROWD CHEERING: Who’s your daddy? (Clapping)

Announcers: And by bringing Pedro in the game, you get the crowd back into it.

DG: Oh, were Yankees fans now into it. Let’s hit pause for a sec. There was this one time when

Pedro lost a game to the Yankees and afterwards he said this:

PM: I mean, what can I say? I just tip my hat and call the Yankees my daddies.

DG: Yeah. So back to Yankee Stadium in Game 7 in 2004.

PM: Who’s your daddy?

CROWD: Who’s your daddy?

PM: Boom boom boom boom boom. All 60 chanting who’s you daddy.

Announcers: It was a seven-run. Now it’s a five-run lead.

DG: After giving up 2 runs and getting taunted by 60,000 fans, a different pitcher might have broken down in that moment. But Pedro’s killer instinct locked in

[MUSIC]

PM: I wanted you to be loud because that could distract anybody else but me, and I was accustomed to having that type of pressure. And as soon as they started, “Pedro! Pedro! Who’s your daddy?” It seemed like I turned it up a notch

Announcers: And John Olerud is going to come off the bench and bat for Tony Clark.

PM: But I don’t know that Olerud was used to hearing so much noise on top of him on every pitch because at that moment, it’s just between me and Olerud. And I knew Olerud was a good hitter.

Announcers: Olerud homered off Pedro Martínez in Game Two.

PM: You know it is personal at that point

Announcers: Olerud takes a strike, 89mph from Martínez.

PM: I said, I’m going to see my talent against your talent in a do-or-die situation. I see if you can handle the best out of me, against the best out of you.

Announcers: Pedro Martínez has woken up 55,000 of this crowd.

PM: Little did they know that chanting “Pedro!” “Pedro!” worked to my advantage.

Announcers: Well, he is letting it fly. This is old Pedro’s velocity. Two out, 95 from Pedro Martínez.

DG: With that, Pedro strikes out Olerud. He wraps up the inning, and the Boston Red Sox go on to win game seven.

Announcers: The Boston Red Sox have won the pennant.
[CHEERING]
DG: Can you take me, like almost pitch by pitch into that Olorud at bat? I mean, he’s a really smart hitter. Like, what is it like to be in that one-on-one battle with a batter with so much on the line?
PM: You know, it is personal at that point. You make it personal. I was in trouble. I wasn’t feeling right. I decided to just play my best cards at that point. And I stopped thinking, well, I’m not warm, you know, the proper, you know I’m not warmed up the proper way. I’m not feeling as good as I would like to. But it’s time to put it aside and risk it all and see what comes out of it.
DG: There were chants. I mean, there was 60,000 people, yeah, and “Pedro!” “Pedro!” And of course, “Who’s your daddy?” was because you made that comment earlier
PM: I made that comment, but you know what? I don’t care. You know why? Because I could use, and I was accustomed to having that type of pressure. For me, it was natural. Every time I went to Yankee Stadium, I was booed. I was called Pedro. I was, I mean, I got so many middle fingers and so many, you know, so many times people asked me to fight. People wanted to fight me. They hated me. They gave me middle fingers. They called me all sorts of names.
DG: You almost embrace it, it sounds like.
PM: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.
DG: He was fouling off a couple balls and then Kenny Lofton steals second base. And it sounded like that gave some life to Yankees fans. I mean, what are you, did that steal bother you? Like what mindset were you in as it was getting late in that at bat?
PM: No, it didn’t bother me. Actually, I relied a lot on the lead we had. And I knew that it was just a matter of time until I felt right back in the situation. And I felt like I could command better what I had because like I said before, not making an excuse, but I just didn’t warm up properly. I didn’t feel comfortable enough to let it go, first of all, because, as you know, as a pitcher, you can break a ligament or whatever if you go out there and you try to let go and you’re not properly warmed.
DG: Oh, so you were holding back a little bit, early in the inning?
PM: I was holding back a little bit until I get the feel for pitching or the feel for my body to respond.
DG: It sounds like you were angry too. Like you were frustrated angry that you were in there.
PM: Yeah, I was angry because nobody explained to me, nobody gave me the time, nobody advised me that I might be in the game. Only if the game was really close and it was a do or die situation, I’ll pick up the ball. And most of the time, when those situations come, for me being the ace and being the number one guy, I will probably ask to be in the game.
DG: So, Pedro, what, that last pitch, it’s a high fastball, 95 miles an hour Olerud can’t even get around. I mean, it’s just a swing and a miss, and he’s done. It felt like that was, I don’t know, just watching it over and over again to get ready to talk to you. It felt there was a lot more than just throwing a baseball in that pitch.
PM: Well, like I said, it was a personal way to say, “I will see what you have, and I’m gonna give you what I have. Let’s see who’s special here and who’s gonna survive this one.” As much as I did against Olerud, I always paid my tributes to his abilities.
DG: Did you think about what might’ve been if you gave up four, five, six runs in that inning and let the Yankees really back into it and maybe people looked at you as responsible for losing that series?
PM: I would probably be the next Bill Buckner or the GOAT or the Curse of Pedro. But I never felt like I was gonna fail. They call it the game of failure. I don’t mind adjusting to one loss or two losses, but I never could live with it. I was never accustomed to losing. I always thought that I went out there to win, and regardless of how hard you struggle at one point there’s gotta be a turning point

DG: Even after the Red Sox beat the Saint Louis Cardinals in the World Series that year, ending the curse. It was the ALCS against the rival Yankees that sticks with most fans, but many still wonder — why was Pedro Martinez ever put into that Game 7 to begin with? The Red Sox manager at the time, Terry “Tito” Francona, and general manager Theo Epstein, they never gave Pedro a reason.

Did you know that Francona was going to try and put you in at some point? I mean, was it even a possibility?

PM: Well, when I saw the big lead, only if it was a, you know, live or die situation I thought I could have been in, but not in that situation. 8 to 1, 8 to nothing. And, you know, in the fifth inning, past the fifth inning, we had a bullpen that was literally untouchable after that. And, I didn’t see the need. I had no business being in that game, but like you, I’m still searching for an answer. I’m still searching. Why was Tito ordered to or. I don’t know. Why did Tito decide to bring me in? I’m still searching. Why? What was the reason?
DG: And you haven’t gotten an answer after all these years.
PM: After all these years, not Tito, not Theo Epstein, not the pitching coach, nobody has explained to me why was I in that game, pretty much one-sided, with a bullpen that was relatively fresh?
DG: I mean, do you think it was, like your Game 5 was not great, even though the Sox ended up winning? Do you think they wanted to give you like a final, kind of a final moment to leave the Sox with a positive? I mean if, you know, but I mean you were gonna go into the World Series, of course, so I guess that wasn’t it. What were they trying to do? It’s actually really confusing to me too. (Laughing)
PM: You are as confused as I am. I had no idea, I don’t know if they wanted to, I don’t know, somewhat get me away from getting the start that I was supposed to get if I didn’t pitch, which was here at home, instead of St. Louis, and spending my birthday by myself in St. Louise, and the team was here, or traveling over to St. Luis. I don’t know what it was, maybe they wanted Schilling, or some other starter to be the starting pitcher here, and leave me with the responsibility to face St. Louis on a decisive third game, that was the game that would probably be the decisive game, whether we were gonna win or not, or let St. Luis make a comeback. I don’t know what the strategy was.
DG: Now we should say here, Francona has talked about this, he said in recent years that this controversial call was actually sentimental. That he wanted Pedro to quote “have a piece of that night.” Regardless of the reason, Pedro did rise to the occasion, but it did not start well.
You come out of the bullpen, you come in, not expecting to be there, and you looked a little rocky in the beginning of the seventh inning. The Yankees immediately started making noise.
PM: They were jumping on me, right?
DG: Yeah.
PM: It was weird.
DG: Was that because you hadn’t gone through the preparation? Like, you hadn’t even been in the mindset of I’m gonna be pitching tonight?
PM: I have my cleats off.
DG: Off?
PM: I’m gonna, for the first time, reveal this. I had my cleats up, close to the heater, because I was cold, and I never thought, never came across my mind, that I would go into the game.
DG: Oh my God.
PM: And I only had like eight throws before I went into the game. And for a starting pitcher, that’s not, they switched their minds in the dugout, after the inning was almost over. So I only have like eight throws. For a starting pitcher, that’s not normal. You know, we need our routine, we need our preparation, we need our stretching, and I wasn’t thinking I’m going into the games. And just like you, I was shocked to see that I was gonna go into the game, especially not even, you know, getting warmed up properly.
DG: So you give up these two runs, and then John Olarud comes to the plate. And he had hit a home run off you in Game 2. You’re out there, not having expected to pitch. You didn’t get to warm up like you normally do. Your cleats weren’t even on. You give up two runs. Yankee Stadium is starting to rock. Like Yankees fans are feeling like they’re gonna keep the curse going. Ruin this magical story. What are you going through on the mound? Like are you saying anything to yourself? Like to…
PM: I’m actually searching why. Why would you put me in a position to fail? But at the same time, I remember I was a free agent. I was gonna have to take a pay cut in order for me to stay in Boston. We were probably going to achieve what we wanted to achieve. I don’t know if there was somewhat, you know, a plan to reduce my salary, to put me in position to fail, to get me a little cheaper. I don’t know what it was, to be honest. I’m still searching, but I never held it, you know, I never held the grudge towards it. At least I was part of the history. I was a part of what we did. And even though I didn’t look good against the Yankees, I participated in that victory that finally got the monkey off our back and sent the Yankees` with the same pain that we had the previous year.
DG: That 2004 American League Championship Series was an inflection point in baseball history. The Curse was broken; it was also the first time a team came back after being down 3 games to none in a series. One thing I wanted to ask Pedro is how he thinks the game has changed in 20 years since then, and how he might pitch to today’s sluggers. That’s coming up next, on Sports in America.

[MIDROLL]

DG: Welcome back to Sports in America. I’m David Greene. Pedro Martínez was one of the dominant pitchers of his era. But baseball has changed since the early 2000s. So how would his approach fit in the modern game?
What would you be like today? I mean, would you, given the recent Aaron Judge home run record in the AL, what would it be like to pitch to him? And do you feel like you could beat him with your best stuff?
PM: I felt like my stuff would play against him. He was going to get me a couple of times because I would attack the strike zone. And it all depends on his mental approach, on how tough or how tough mentally he was. Because I was gonna really test him. I was gonna go up. Stanton the same way. I was going to go up; it doesn’t matter how big and tall they are and how strong they are. I was gonna go up.
DG: Up with the high fastball?
PM: Yeah, I would keep them honest. I was gonna keep them on us to be, I swear to God, as much as I love them both, I was going to establish that you cannot lean over. And then I would try to do my work around the strike zone with them.
DG: It sounds like you have you fantasized about like, or imagined, pitching to Aaron Judge?
PM: I imagined. I imagined a lot, and I’ve seen the holes. I’ve seen how you can get them out. But you also needed to know that you are dealing with special players. Giancarlo and Judge both of them deserve a lot of respect.
DG: Giancarlo Stanton and Aaron Judge, yeah.
PM: Yeah, you don’t want to hit them somewhere in the head or whatever. We saw what could have happened to Giancarlo when he got hit in the face. If you don’t command the strike zone, I would suggest just take your bidding and deal with the rest of the guys. Because if you’re gonna pitch those guys up here and you’re going to get them hurt, I’m against it. Because if I’m playing with Giancarlo and Judge, and you hit one of my big guys? I’m taking at least three of yours. And I mean, I say it with no hesitation. You just don’t hurt my players. You hit one of my players, I’m taking yours. And if I didn’t secure one of yours, where I’m gonna take a second one? Just to make sure.
DG: I knew this was the case in baseball, but it’s still pretty extraordinary to hear you talk about it with such sort of clear language that this is the way it is. I will hit you as a batter if I need to.
PM: Yeah, and I would do that to beat you, too. If I needed to hit you because you didn’t move your feet from the area that I wanted to establish, well, I have to hit you, but in a safe way. Now, one thing I can tell you, and take pride in that, I really got command of what I did in the inner part of the play. Nobody can call you to the side and say, “Pedro ever hit me in the head with a fastball.” Yeah, I hit you in the ribs, I’ll hit you on your legs, I’ll get you in your butt cheek, but not over the head, not above the shoulder. Nobody was ever hit by a fastball from me in the head. I learned to command the strike zone and the inner part of the plate, control the inner part of the plate in order for me to make my living in the other areas of the plate. If you’re not qualified to pitch in the inner pot of the plate. I suggest you go and practice, you learn, you watch me, you watch Roger Clemens, you watch a lot of those guys that did it for so long, and you learn how to do it. If you don’t know how to it, it is extremely dangerous, especially these days, where everybody throws a hundred to be messing around with someone’s career up in the ear flap area. If you don’t know how to do that, then take your bidding.
DG: Go learn.
PM: Go learn. Spend time in your backyard practicing. Like I heard about Robbie Ray, he went by himself in the backyard, and he figured something out because he was really erratic. And he, all of a sudden, something clicked. Well, I would suggest you go and do that before you attempt to go against a guy like Aaron Judge, and you’ll harm his career, or you’re ruined, such a special talent and a special ambassador of the game.
DG: Pedro, I have two more questions. I do wanna ask you about the Dominican Republic. Just reading about your childhood there and playing baseball with socks that were sewn together as balls and brooms for bats. You’ve talked about what your success means, that you wanna be a sign of hope for kids growing up in Latin America. And I just wonder, what is the key? Today, what should we all know is the key for a kid in the DR to be able to have the same opportunities that you and your brother did to make it to the big stage?
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PM: I think it’s a matter of opportunities, and I do have a foundation. And you know why? Because when I was a little leaguer, I needed around, probably $8 to $10 to travel to Puerto Rico. And at 12, you’re old enough to remember what you care for, what you want. And as a young athlete at that age, I was marked by the fact that my mom couldn’t afford to pay for my trip to Puerto Rico, even though I did so well in the district as a little leaguer, I was never sent to represent, and because of lack of opportunities, I never made it until the second World Baseball Classic in order for me to wear my country’s colors. And I think the reason I say I’m a sign of hope is because I went against all odds. And I was able to succeed in the big leagues. I’m a first-ballot Hall of Famer. I put up some huge numbers against everybody’s expectations. And. I feel extremely proud to have done that, but it’s because I had the opportunity. I was granted an opportunity to be out there. Not too many chances to fail. I must say that, not too many chances to fail, but at least I got one chance to succeed. And that’s the one I took advantage of. And that’s the reason why I’m talking to you today, because I was granted an opportunity, and I believe so much. In someone taking advantage of that opportunity. So many guys that we have seen, oh, so small, Altuve, David Eckstein. You go, how is he doing it? Well, somehow someone took a chance on them, and they did it. And look how successful they have been. MVPs and all that. Well, it’s just a matter of having an opportunity, believing in yourself, believing in something greater than just everybody’s thoughts. You have to really set your goals, go and work, be disciplined. Remember, and I’m gonna say this, the reason I look better, and my numbers look better. You know why it is?
DG: Why?
PM: Because I think I pitched in the most difficult era in all of baseball.
DG: Huh? More difficult than today.
PM: More difficult than today. Today is an even ground. It’s an even-ground field. You look around the league, and there’s no steroids mentioned. As big as Judge is, as big as Giancarlo Stanton is, they get tested. In my days, steroids were legal.
DG: So you were up against some guys who got some extra help.
PM: Oh, believe me. And that was really difficult to do. On average, look how long it’s taken for Aaron Judge to break this record that Roger Maris left. By the way, congratulations to him. Because it’s been a while since we saw someone break the 60 mark in homers. Back in my days, when I was in the middle of it, in the thick of things, 60 homers were a daily thing that you saw at the end of the season. So, I must tell you that, and that was against all odds. So I’m a sign of hope for every one of them. If there was someone that had enough reasons to use steroids and become bigger, it should have been me. But thanks to God, today I can say to all of those guys, if I made it, you can make it because I’m not impressive at all, physically.
DG: The last question, just to come full circle. I think about that 2004 run by the Red Sox. I mean, the bloody sock game, the comeback, the ending the Curse, and winning the World Series after coming out of that ALCS. But just listening to you describe being put in that Game 7, I mean, it sounds like it was complicated for you. I just wonder as you reflect back, like it was your last year in Boston, but a championship that meant everything to that city and the franchise. How do you reflect on that year personally in your career?
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PM: I see it in a positive way. Whether it was to harm my free agency or whatever thought there was, or whatever thought came across my mind. I can tell you, winning in New York, having the opportunity to raise the trophy, having the opportunity to be part of that Game 7 that won it for us in New York, for me to take the trophy and run to their dugout. Right field side, center field side, left field side, and third base side, and rub on them how we beat them after having the heartbreaker the year before, and how much they laugh and how much joy there was. I wanted to see them cry, too, and get the feel that I had from ’03. Whether it was negative as far as results, I see it in a positive way because I was part of that game. And not only that, after that, I was a part of the team that brought the trophy to Boston, and I was the first one to be in the front of the door of the bus and put the trophy in the city of Boston, because when I got off the plane, I had it. When I got to the bus, I had it. And then, when I was about to get off from the bus, I had Ellis Burks, who was retiring that year, step in front of Fenway, and I handed the trophy to Ellis Burks and the city of Boston. And that is to me, my biggest trophy, my biggest achievement. The individual stuff don’t matter. Numbers don’t matter. I came over to complete a mission; mission accomplished. I, for whatever reason, whatever happened, it’s all in the back. The championship was what I came to get for Boston, and I got it. And that’s my biggest achievement in sports.
DG: Pedro, it is a true honor talking to you, and I wish you the best and thank you so much.
PM: Well, the honor is mine to have shared these thoughts and moments with all of you and the fans that are gonna be watching this.
DG: This season, on Sports in America:

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RYAN CLARK: There’s a picture of me lying in the confetti with my eyes closed. It was the first time I had exhaled in over a year.

DG: We’re going beyond the flashy highlights to get you the stories that power athletes’ most enduring triumphs

CONNOR HEYWARD: When I scored, I was just like (laughing) this can’t be real!

DG: And their crushing letdowns

ALLISON NEWLIN: Athletes are held to a different standard and not allowed to make mistakes.

DG: We’ll hear from the stars, the coaches and the fans.

COACH SLAUGHTER: I’ve never seen one human being stay in front of her and stop her from scoring a basketball.

DG: About what makes sports worthwhile

LIA THOMAS: It’s easier to fight the whole world than to fight yourself every day.

DG: And why we keep showing up to cheer, together. Join me, David Greene, as we kick off Sports in America.

[THEME MUSIC]

Our executive producers are Joan Isabella and Tom Grahsler.

Our senior producer is Michael Olcott. Our producer is Michaela Winberg. And our associate is Bibiana Correa.

Our engineer is Mike Villers. Our tile artwork was created by Bea Walling.

Sports in America is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia and is distributed by PRX. Some of our interviews were originally created by Religion of Sports, with special thanks to Adam Schlossman.

You can find Sports in America on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, the iHeart Radio App — you know, wherever you get your podcasts.